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Why not to use Java...

Last post was 11 Feb 2003 at 15:08
java Melbourne, Australia
  • 18 years ago

    hey,


    heres an interesting like to those Java lovers:


    http://www.internalmemos.com/memos/memodetails.php?memo_id=1321


    Its an internally leaked memo defining why Java should not be used for distributing applications under the solaris OS (suns own) because of issues defined. As far as i can see thers not much of a difference in Solaris performance bottlenecks and the same under win32. They are both very sluggish. and i'm talking about Suns own(and original)  implementation of the Java platform and not Microsofts attempt.


    I tried Java a few years ago and didnt like it. it wasnt easy to learn at first but you get used to it after a while but the performance in any JAR is very sluggish.

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  • 18 years ago

    although yes, I agree that in some situations (i.e., server side
    processing), java can be slower, some of the reasons I'd say
    it's used right now is because:


    a) You can create/make cool things in browsers, without many
    of the associated activeX control problems (i.e., activeX not
    'really' working in netscape, permissions -- whereas java has
    an extensive/default security 'sandbox' mode).


    b) some people chose to do .jsp/server side processing because
    they felt software developed in java is/was not prone to the same
    type of "bugs" in MS (or the extensive "oops! we forgot to let you
    know about this security patch!") 'bugs'.

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  • 18 years ago

    coolio> looks like your doing your rounds! I just got 4 new post notifications from you!


    thats true, what i was refering to was Java Applications. Not web based applications (applets/JavaScript/JSP pages). I use JSP when companies want me to write their sites in JSP as an alternative to ASP and i think its great MS supports both, but when it comes to true multi-platform applications i wouldnt go with  Java.


    For those who have no idea what i'm talking about, download LimeWire and see what i mean. I tried v2.0 or 2.2 and it was pretty sluggish among other applications.


    interesting to see what qwijibow thinks of this one!

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  • 18 years ago

    >>coolio> looks like your doing your rounds


    hehehehe


    yeah, think I might have 'earned' the title of slightly 'addicted'
    member... hehe


    as for some of the 'newer' apps... yeah, it can be slow... but the
    main 'reason' it is slow is because of the implementation of the JVM.
    Using a comparison example, when Netscape first came out (or
    the relatively speaking 'newer' versions, with 3.1) -- it introduced
    "Java" with their own JVM. It was really cool, and caught on. Microsoft --
    because they wanted to compete, making IE the dominant browser,
    worked really hard and wrote a really optimized JVM (Java Virtual
    Machine) -- such that it ran a LOT faster in IE than Netscape, so a lot
    of people started playing Java games, doing java whatever in MSIE,
    just because it was faster...


    So likewise -- if it is a slow 'application' -- it is due to a couple things:
    a) JVM implementation
    b) Which JDK the software is based off of (i.e., if it is using JDK 1.0.2,
    1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc, etc).


    Is qwijibow a big fan of java or something?



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  • 18 years ago

    i've got the latest JDK instaleld and its still very sluggish. ohhh we'll! and those early implementations of Netscape (v2 and v3) rocked! v4 sucked!


    qwijibow? i dont know just wondering what he thinks of it all..

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  • 18 years ago

    HeHe,,,, my opinion beeing requested ??


    i dunno much bout java, they force me to program in it at uni... but when given the option, i always do my assignemts in c++.


    things i dislike about java...
    1) under windows 98, the command console does not have a scroll bar, and u know the whole thing where 1 error report can cause anouther false 100 error reports to be printed to the screen,,,,, you never see the first, and ost important error message cos its dissapread of the top of the screen.. (applies to command line compilers only)


    2) its WAAAY too slow, i recelntly handed in my AI coursework, average length of time every1 elses coursework took to complete the puzzle (5 minutes)... my c++ code 0.8 seconds.... on the same pc...... now i know im a better programer than most at the moment.. (every1 else only bin progammin since october) but surely im not THAT much better ???


    3)it was created to look similar to c++ to atract c++ programmers right ???? then why make those little changes that me, a c++ programmer forgets about,, eg the semi colon after a class.


    4) i like pointers !!!! they help NO END !


    5) i like overloaded operators..


    6) polymorphism ?????


    7) AGH ! why is it soo complicated using a buffered file ???


    8)the language does not have, what in my opinion is a true Array structure.
    Its arrays can be altered in size dureing runtime !!!!
    now, for an array to work, each array index has to be next to the 1 that precedes it in main memory,,,, this is so u can find it..... eg, to find array index 15, the compiler takes the memory address of index 0  and adds the size of 1 index multiplied by 15 to it,,, right ????


    BUT, if u can change the size of the array at runtime,,, there is no guarantee that the memory after the array already in memory is free, therefor the increased array space must be placed somwhere else..... so, now how do we find it ?? a pointer... and tadaa, its nolonger an array,, its a linked list right ?


    and we all know that linked lists are many many many times slower than an array.


    9)i just have a grudge againsed it since java script is what plls up millions of popup windows on my pc when im on the net.


    10) unlike VC++, i was unable to figure out how to use Borland J++ builder without rewading loads.


    Things i like about Java.....
    1) Compatability.. works on any os that has a VM .. (ive only used windows and UNIX)
    2) bulit in string manipulation stuff.
    3) in borland j++ builder, u type 'import' and you get a drop down list of all the available librarys,, a bit like how vb displays member functions and variables when you type 'SomeRandomClass.'.. that way i dont have to remember library names.
    4)ummmm..................uhhh...microsoft dont like it right ???




    LOL........


    have u noticed how Macs are coming more popular lately ????


    ive been getting things through the mail.. (u know, free cd's, try our free internet trial,, step 1 , insert cd, step 2 enter credit card number....)


    and in the minimum system requirements,, it nolonger says "windows9x", it now says "Windows9x or MacOS 10"


    also in the computer shop called "GAME" i noticed many games now comming with 2 cd's, 1 for pc, and 1 for Mac.


    now althought i dont like macs.... Im a PC person,,,,, i like the way that the PC, and microsoft are starting to get competition on the gaming market, putting some extra pressure on them to work extra hard to get me a few more trixels and polgons per second


    its not that i thinks macs are inferior to pc's i just dont agree with them. they advertise themselfs as beeing reealy easy to use,, just un pack them..... and plug it in.


    BOREING ! i like running round different shops, buging different bits from different places and worrying weather everything is compatable, and beeing able to custom build a pc for myself.


    and i enjoy having to put the thing together,


    then finding out that the anologue cable from my dvd drive will not plug into the slot on the mother board, and having to whip out the soldering iron, and solder the wires directly on.


    and i like the way my pc is ugly,,, i fiddle about inside it so much, i hardly ever bother keeping the case on.... its nicer that way, looks all high teck with wires all over the place, and so i can see the fans spi up when i boot, and hear the hard drives spin upto speed.


    LOL. my room looks like texters laboritry, my cd player is broke, the mechanism that spins the cd is damaged beyond repair(droped it), and i burned out the amplifyer.... SO.. i took the outer case off to expose the inner electronics..... i took a personal cd plaver.... and soldered the ouput from the cd player, into where the line IN of the graphic equaliser.... then the output of the graphic equaliser into an old car sterio amplifyer, then out the amplifyer, back into the cd player and down its normal wires to the speakers... its insane ! looks sooo weired. just a mess of circuit boards, and crap..... but when i hook the amplifyer upto a car batery i keep in my room, and turn on the cd palyer, and the walkman, it actually works !!! and i get to keep the graphic equaliser !


    waaaw, i reeealy went wondering from the topic there.....


    {please dont start accusing me of beeing a mac hater}

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  • 18 years ago

    chris: just have to clarify several things:


    Javascript




    >>9)i just have a grudge againsed it since java script is what plls up millions of popup
    >> windows on my pc when im on the net.


    java is NOT related at all to "javascript". "Javascript" was called "livescript",
    and was integrated first in the netscape browser designed to be/add "client-side"
    scripting, to have nifty little things like 'mouseovers' on menus (which actually came
    later) -- but things like displaying the date, simple form validation, etc.


    It was renamed "javascript" because "Java" was becoming so popular, that 'they'
    wanted to capitalize on that... one thing I find really funny (not saying yer like this )
    -- is when some people have applied for jobs (with really NO clue about computers),
    they put that they "program" in "javascript", and then actually make the mistake in
    the interview of saying it is the SAME thing!!!


    Polymorphism




    You do have polymorphism in java. You can overload methods, similar
    to c++, through inheritance with method overloading (class ... extends class),
    etc, etc.



    As for other stuff:


    1) pointers -- once you get used to 'em, it can be a bummer getting 'unused' to
    them... but sometimes I found it really frustrating trying to figure out whether in
    this case I want *pointer, *pointer, &pointer, &pointer, or whatever! and I really
    liked it in java because you don't have to worry about that!
    2) it was 'partially' designed to 'attract' c++ programmers. Essentially 'they' wanted
    the 'best' out of C++, without the confusing stuff (i.e., memory dumps for no apparent
    reason, hence built in garbage collection, no confusing pointers, hence not really any
    pointers, etc, etc). But it was also designed as an alternative to MS's stuff.


    ANyways -- as for "macs" being more popular, Micro$oft "invested" some $100 or
    $150 million in Apple just a couple years ago... so essentially, MS is 'competing' with
    itself...




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  • 18 years ago

    Ms invested in macs ???
    what they trying to do ? create a win / win situation ?


    hey, maybe Bill will invest all of microsofts money into mak, then delibratly sbotage there company by releasing a new operating system... WindowsXP_2005  which is an exact copy of windows 1.0 (but comes with a a toy, like kinder egg's)


    therefore letting macs win the home and gaming market over.


    hmmm,, conspiracy theorys are fun


    i read in "new scientist" that America 'Gave' russia a few million squid so that they could launch a few more satelites to spy on america's military.... sound weired ??????


    the theory was that..... in RUSSIA's early warning nuke missile attack raders went off a few times,,, but each time, RUSSIA was able to look for any launch signs using its spy satelites, and show that it was a false alarm, and they should probably NOT launch nukes back in defence.....


    but now, russia's satelites are .. well..... old n crap, and degraded,, now they are only able t spy on america 12 hours a day.

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  • 18 years ago

    on the subject of microsoft and macs.... you can get IE , Messenger and Office for mac (actually has some neat features that never made it onto the Windows version), so Microsoft must realise that some people just are never gonna use Windows (ie publishers!!)

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  • 18 years ago

    Hey you might never know what MS has in store for the next Windows. Could be something that'll make everyone wanna use it.


    Besides, as bad as windows is; i'd rather be running it then a mac.


    No offence to you mac's out there.

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  • 18 years ago

    the next version of windows is dubbed windows longhorn, i've got an early alpha - which you can also now download because its been leaked out - which is not 100% stable but does bring into the new OS a stack of new features and improvements. Its based on a new Database like filesystem and has these cool XML pluggable sidebars. It requires a fairly good system to run it too at the moment but those should be fixed when its expected to be released around 2004 or 5.


    THeres also a rumour that Windows XP SE will be out to keep MSDN Universal Subscribers happy. but thats only a rumour. Windows.NET will be out approximately in August.


    Microsoft have been asked to distribute Suns Java in the future, its an ugly law suite but its an interesting one too... first they(Sun) wanted MS not to touch java now they want them to push java into windows as a standard distro... what nuts@!@.

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  • 18 years ago

    haha, interesting...


    I like the bit about it being a 'win' win situation and that's
    much truer than you think! (it's a "windows" win situation!)


    Have you noticed how similar MSIE on the mac looks to the
    Win version, except perhaps different colors? Yes, it appears
    that MS is trying to make the look and feel of the Mac become
    more and more like MS, such that probably 2-3 years from now,
    there won't be much difference, except it's called a Mac.
    I.e., -- nowadays you can also buy really good pc emulators for
    the mac, such that you can play games that support directx, etc too!
    So... perhaps it should be called "Mac-dows"


    As for the Sun vs MS java dispute. It's not as easy as that -- but
    more along the lines of what happened was this.


    1. Sun developed java, shipped it with Netscape.
    2. MS wanted to compete with Netscape, and although java was a
    threat to their OS (windows), needed it for MSIE to compete.
    3. MS got java, tweaked it, made the jvm much better in MSIE as one
    attempt to switch users to MSIE.
    4. Now, since MS had pretty much eliminated the 'Netscape' threat,
    didn't want suns new OS competing with theirs, so started adding 'extras'
    to make it MS java (not really the specs provided by sun).
    5. Sun got upset, said what are you doing? Java is supposed to be
    cross-platform, not MS-platform.
    6. Went to court, MS basically said "fine", and started using a buggy
    version of the JVM (apparently designed to try and make java look bad).
    7. Went again to court, and Sun got upset saying they didn't want a
    'crappy' version shipped -- just a good version that wasn't 'tied' to MS.
    8. Again, went to court, and MS clouding/confusing the issue saying
    what more does sun want, etc?


    So right now, again before the courts. MS was ordered to include java
    (a good version), and not sure what the most recent developments have
    been.

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  • 18 years ago

    Coolio i have to say that your summary is quite comical

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  • 18 years ago

    quite comical?


    what is it you disagree with? (instead of making a flippant comment
    like that) (or sorry, maybe i'm misreading you, if you mean the
    idea of "macdows" being funny/comical, yeah, thx )


    Hmm... Mac-dows... almost sounds like McChicken...
    so maybe you can go to McDonalds and buy a McWindows
    or a McMac

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