Back to discussion

Do u agree or not??

Last post was 06 Jun 2002 at 02:53
.net , vb6 United States
  • 18 years ago

    This is my own hypothesis:





    Microsoft Visual Basic is the easiest computer language to learn. As a result, even young people (like me. by the way I'm 16) can design a program within seconds and sell it to the world.


    That's where the worry of Microsoft comes. They've designed Visual Basic in such an awkward way. They've planned to make all the programs, produced by Visual Basic, dependent and awkward. All the programs derived from vb cannot run on other computers unless they have vb installed or have vb runtime library file(msvbvm60.dll 1356 KB)


    Websoftware(moderator) told me earlier


    "You can't drive a car without fuel....the fuel here is msvbvm60.dll"


    yeah, but the problem is "We can fill our car any fuel we want...We can drive anywhere...we could even drive on Mars...." For the vb car, we have to fill only vb fuel(not any others) we can drive only on vb roads...


    Microsoft sold us vb cars....and still not satisfied.....they still make us buy their goddamned vb fuel...we can't use any other fuel. we can't drive in other countries unless they have petrol shops that sell vb fuel



    Microsoft applied the concept of OCX or ActiveX. They provided only 20 standard controls in vb (button, label, checkbox, frame, timer, and etc)
    If your program requires additional controls(like statusbars, progress bars, tabs and etc), then they have for you OCX. That's where the disaster comes. When you distribute your program, you have to attach all the OCX and Runtime crap together with your program. You could also fuse your program or make it setup. But you will finally end up with having net size more than 2 MB, rather difficult of distribute or sell it.


    So it's like Microsoft's plan finally came true. Other people cannot use the program, which you made, without their stupid product files (OCX and DLL). They want to make money from people.


    People complained about that. So the heroic Fusion comes in. What it does is simple. It combines all the OCX and DLL, fuses and compresses all of them. Even a "hello world" program ends up with having 1MB. Fusion is so hilariously dull. The "hello world" program needs only a few controls and resources. Why on earth does it fuse and compress the whole goddamned msvbvm60.dll? It should be kind of intelligent, select only required functions in msvbvm60.dll and then fuse it. What the hell is so hard about it? A "hello world" program should be kind of less than 100kb.


    As the matter of fact, Microsoft can easily make a vb compiler that can produce standalone exe. But their greediness stops them doing.


    So Visual Basic doesn't fit anyone unless there is a suitable compiler. C++ should be your choice. C++ has unlimited classes, controls and library(header files) which can be directly plugged into your standalone program. So many people have migrated from VB to C++.


    ==================


    Here is a similar story:




    Once upon a time, there was a couple Mr VB and Ms VB.


    Mr C++ was Mr VB's friend.
    Mr C++ was the husband of Ms C++


    So basically there were two couples
           Mr VB & Ms VB
           Mr C++ & Ms C++



    Mr VB and Ms VB were both strong and beautiful but they are stingy, greedy and cruel.
    Mr C++ and Ms C++ were both strong and generous but not as attractive as Mr&Ms VB.



    All of them got babies after a couple of years.


    Mr&Ms VB named their baby Vblo
    Mr&Mr  C++ name their baby Cpp



    Mr&Ms VB were so stingy that they fed Vblo only scarce food called OCX which are sucked chicken bones.


    Mr&Ms C++ were really generous and caring that that fed Cpp so much, like "Classes of meat" and "Libraries of Milk"


    Mr&Ms VB didn't let Vblo go out of their house. They made him dependent. Poor little Vblo couldn't play with his friends. He cried his heart out everyday. But they were so stubborn that they didn't still let him go out.


    Mr&Ms C++ were really flexible. They allowed Cpp go out. So Cpp became independant and manly. Cpp played happily everyday.


    Finally, Cpp became strong and macho while Vblo was like a little dying kitty. Vblo was frequently bullied at school. Because he was the worse, ugliest and the weakest student there. So Vblo told Mr&Ms VB. However they still smiled and laughed at him. So he finally decided to leave his parents. He quit their house and stayed on the road all the time.


    Mr/Ms C++ saw Vblo on the road and took him to their house to adopt him while he was almost dead. Poor little Vblo passed away on the way to their house. Mr C++ got so angry with his old friend, Mr VB and called police. Soon, police came and arrested both Mr&Ms VB. They were charged and jailed.


    From that day on, Mr&Ms C++ had told other parents not to be like VB family, stingy and cruel.
    Mr&Ms C++ got so many children afterwards and lived happily with their strong, helpful, beautiful children, while Mr&Ms VB passed away in the prison.



    That's is the end of the story.










    Do you want to be a child of C++ or VB?.
    Do you agree with me that Microsoft is greedy??
    Any suggestion for VB compilers?
    Any comment?





    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    Well your on a VB forum so you must use VB. If you don't use VB then get off this forum. VB is made for its simplicity and ease of use. That's why so many people use it. I mean if you cant include to extra files with your program you shouldn't even program. And 2Mb is not big these days with more and more people geting broadband. I mean sure it doesn't fit on a floppy, but if your selling software your sure as hell not putting it on a floppy. Even with C++, programmers have tons of controls. Look through like a Diablo or EQ folder. There are still tons of files they use. Why? Would you rather recompile all of EQ into one exe everytime it needs an update. No, they update individual files and DLLs. Even if everything for your "Hello world!" project is included in one file everytime someone wants to update they'd have to update the whole file. Unless your smart enough to make your own patcher that would only change the binary data to make the new version. With VB, once users have the dependecies don't need them agian. They just download your little 32Kb "Hello world 2!" exe and they have the new version. The only thing I see wrong with VB is that it is so easy that it makes programmers lazy to learn other languages like C++. I'm not saying everyone, but most. Also, I really don't think VB is good for commercial apps. If you work for a software company, most likely they'll be using C++. VB is designed for people like, sixteen years old, an interest in programming and not enough time to learn C++. If I tried to learn C++ and go to school either I wouldn't learn C++ or I'd do bad in school. And I'm not stupid or nothing I make B's. If you want to argue some more about this then reply. But VB is such a gift to us because it gives us an easy way to make our own programs. I want you to teach someone C++ in a week, you can't. I guarantee you that you could teach an computer savvy person VB in a week max. So, next time you decide to look down on VB agian think about it. Go look at PSC or here and see how many VB submissions are on them. There's thousands and probally millions on the web. And there all from people like us and there free. For my conclusion I'd like to say agian VB is a gift to us and remeber that.

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    Lack of portability is the down side to a DIRT EASY programming language.  I use the term "programming" loosely.  It's all about the Yin and the Yang.  But yes, C++ IS the happy medium between bloated/easy VB and clean/hard as hell Assembly.

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh $h*t! What have i DONE?


    nooooooo my lame(yes it was a quickie thought which just popped into my head) story done to you?


    I'm sorry for all those you feel as if I've betrayed them.... now if you'll excuse me i think i will go and hang myself and get runover by both Mr/Mrs VB and Mr/Mrs C++!


    Okkkkayyy moving right along now:


    Well i dont know what to say really. I started with QBasic(yes i am young and dumb - 17 still) in the early dayz and later moved onto C++(simple stuff i learnt from books because the net wasnt as resourceful as it was in those days) there was no Windows 9x or any GUI type stuff just command(DOS type) or apps which did simple things. I still use VB(and I think I'm fairly good at it... please bag me if I'm wrong in assuming that) and I also know C++ pretty much well. But I use a combo of both in my work along with other compilers.... Delphi(i like it) and ofcourse now .NET(C# in particular).... but we must all understand that these compilers are not 'designed' to be evil. OKay we all like to bag Billy Boy but why? Microsoft has done a great job in bringing up VB and now with VB.NET tied the loose ends and made it better.


    I ofcourse wont write any games/graphics applicatoins on VB mainly becuase i prefer C++(speed and flexibility) but for applications(HotHTML and others I've written) I go for VB or Delphi, why? Its fast turnaround and great!


    If your hardcore about programming screw C++ and learn ASM! Now how many would do that?


    I think everyone's got personal tastes. Qiute frankly if it wasnt for those lame QBasic programs i wrote which firstly was a simple input the name of the person and then return a 'you suck' or 'you are cool' type it wouldnt have gotten me interested in programming 10 years later.


    I like VB and I like my C++ to go with that too!


    I'm sure many of you feel the same way about VB, like me you got 'into' programming because you would/should/may have learnt it in school(my teachers arent the best, they only know prehistoric VB).


    Phew... i just came back from a 4 hour lecture for Mid year revision on Accounting and a 5 hour revision lecture on Physics... and i wrote this much for this post.... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    ...and just a litte note about Fusion, i passed a note to Chris Booth(FavorWare) about your suggestion about only including the required functions for distributing 'fusioned' VB apps. Alhtough its very unlikely it will happen but nevertheless... i never thought that France would loose and that Hanse Cronje would be killed in a plane crash and so what happend?


    I always like to keep my apps/work lightweight. Thats why(if you have seen my posts on this and some ohter forums) you will notice me unkeen on using external references and components like FastLib which just make the baggage heavier, most of the functionality(like i remember sumone wanted to make a dir and didnt know how, so someone suggested FastLib.... WHAT DA? just use the integrated function mkDIR to do it... excess baggage there). But there are times(with MS Windows Common Controls) you require these because you just cant be bothered to create your own from the DLL which is basically on most windows systems(recent ones definetly but i'm not sure about 95/NT4).


    anyhow i need to get some sleep. Too tired to think. hence all the spelling mistakes.

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    hey mr/ms [Coaz]


    i didn't know that u were a lawyer of VB.


    i've already given some reasonable explanation about vb and C++
    but u kept on defending vb wihtout any reasonable explanation.



    how much microsoft give u for that? u asked me to leave this forum.


    i'm a reasonable guy who needs reasonable answers from people.
    i'd accept ur opinion, if it had been kind of reasonable.




    and about C++, i' learned it myself last week. It took me only 4 days! i've already started making some windows programs in C++





    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    Thanks heaven...Websoftware ... for your reasonable and intelligent explanation.

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    The main thing about VB is you can get a fully functional app in far less time than C++, with a gentler learning curve. Unfortunately, it also encourages bad programming techniques because it is so "quick and easy" to use......


    ... one thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is VB.net.... this has a 20mb dependancy, in the form of the .net framework..... however, once this is installed and becomes an integral part of the next ms os, you won't need to distribute it at all.... you'll be able to xcopy a 20kb VB.net program, and it will run first time


    (.. oh well.. time to get back to the revision now... )

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    First off, I'd be the last one to be working for Microsoft. And I only asked you to leave if your going to talk bad about VB. You may have learned how to make a little window in C++, a few controls and other basic things. Do you have all that memorized by heart? Could you make that in notepad without looking at an examples or previous code? I already learned the basics of C++ from a book that's over 1000 pages. It took me about a week to read. And I still don't know enough to make an online game. You can make simple 2D and MUD games in VB very easily. And the Winsock control makes it a breeze. I've looked at winsock examples and C++ and there not very easy if you don't know what your doing. And yes, like James said it does encourage bad programming. Like I said before it makes people too lazy to learn another language like C++. And HotHTML is good example of a good VB app. It's made in VB and is a commercial application. I mean sure, you wouldn't use VB to right a network app or a big company database app, but it has it uses like everything does. And maybe I am defending VB, but I have a good reason to be.


    And my name is [coax] not [Coaz]...


    Also, I'm not going to post my opnion on this anymore as I feel that I have made it clear.

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    Twist of fate is playing the paranoid angle,  where everything microsoft does is an attempt at mind control and world domination, which just isn't the case.  I'm trying to think of what to say next, but for the life of me I can't remember what your point was... bah! Oh well.


    "and about C++, i' learned it myself last week. It took me only 4 days! i've already started making some windows programs in C++"


    Thanks, I needed a laugh!


    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    "It took me only 4 days! i've already started making some windows programs in C++"


    What da?


    It took me almost a year to get used to it and learn in properly. Sure I was like 10 but then again its not such an easy enviroment when your so used to BASIC code. Its also maybe becasue i suck but then again I've never heard anyone say that before(the 4 day thing).


    and yes i forgot to include in my previous posts about the 'bad programming techniques' aka 'lazy $ht'. Quite right James and if you've been reading some of the columns in the MSDN magazine(or the papper/newsletter that ships with the MSDN Library+ subscriptions) about VB and what developers think about it you'll find that *most anti-vb or C++ programmers use that excuse for either not using VB or not learning VB. But they do have a point. I'm just a little to tired to post the reason so when i get back from school(:mad I'll do that.


    Twist of Fate>Yeah no worries. That was just 'my' personal opinion.

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    What's funny that I learned C++ in 4 days?



    C++ is easy coz i learned Java a couple years ago.
    Java was quite tough, taking me more than a year.
    Now i'm pretty good at Java.
    C++ and Java are almost the same.
    I learned Perl last year
    Then I learned VB.
    Then I learned C++.


    If u know one language, it's a piece of cake to learn other languages

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    ahhhh that explains it. It was the same for me with Java(C++>Java) it didnt take me 4 days but took me shorter that what it took me to teach myself C++, but never the less it was TOUGH(Java)!


    btw i still suck@Java.

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    well i agree with websoftware and Coax(About how hard C++ is to learn when you havent learnt Java b4 - lol!)


    I love VB and as wensoftware said, if it wasnt for VB i would be a male giggalo in some homey town getting drunk and screwing chicks for money. okay not so drastic but VB got me interested into programming, im still learning and i love it.


    I'll teach myslef C++ when iget the time but at the moment i'll stick with VB, its fast to produce applications even for personal use.


    and your not dumb and i think your up there with the pro's when it comes to VB(i havent seen you work with other enviroments).


    CHEERS!

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    WebSoftware:


    P.S. I read this thread:
    http://www.wsoftware.net/forum/displaytopicthreads.asp?ForumID=3&TopicID=7&PagePosition=1


    so your the terminator ? MAd! I've always wanted to meet a 'real' hacker. I've read some tutorials by you on IIS/Linux exploits on Astalavista.box.sk and astalavista.com


    could you deliver us from evil and make us the thing that Twist Of Fate is asking? ( a program which fusions only the required functions from the DLL?)

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    mujanoojapoojawhatda: firstly what's with the nick? I like it!


    secondly, thank-you for agreeing.


    thirdly, hmmm... the folks in Bit-Arts(develoeprs of Fusion) are real hardcore ASM programmers. I only know ASM at an beginner to intermediate level whereas those 'chaps'(james> lol!) are professionals. I wont be able to come up with something like that... ever i dont think.


    finaly,


    the terminator stuff is all in the past..... my dark past. everyones got a black hole somewhere in their lives. If not they will by the time they go to heaven. Thats just mine. I'm not a 'real' hacker, the real guys are those that laugh their heads off at lamerz trying to pose as hackers. I guess i fall in that category. I am more of an exploiter. I do it purely for educational purposes and for enjoyment. if you find any of my 'work' dont try it out. That will not only get you in trouble but also tarnish the reason of (exploiters) exploitnig systems and making them secure.

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    I'd like to add my 2 cents:


    VB - The learning curve is so simple, the compiler fixes your mistakes and you end up with bad programming habits that it isn't funny. Programs are about 100k, with the 1.3 MB Runtime File. You'll have a hard time learning to program another language properly.


    C/C++ - The learning curve is longer, and you learn better programming because if you stuff up it certainly won't work. Programs are 100kb period. A good starting language.


    Assembler - The learning curve is huge, and if you stuff up you could say bye bye computer. Programs are 4kb and are able to do more than the VB or C++ programs (ok, that's an overstatement but meh. You'd be almost stupid to try this first.


    On the bad programming habits:
    I've developed a few, like - not always declaring variables, telling the program to ignore errors, writing ambiguous code.
    But I'm working on it - 'Option Explicit' is really good at helping declaring, learning how to handle Errors helps, and I remember to add comments (if after the writing), and tab everything out nicely.

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    vb really needs a Fusion that fuses only required functions in the runtime DLL...



    by the time we have it, vb will be perfect!

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    websoftware > my nick was just what my sister was saying when i joined! thanks!


    ahhh the dark past ehhh? converted hacker!


    So your a hacker but not really a hacker but more of an exploiter?  Anyhow i think i should drop this subject. I dont want you or anyone to get in trouble. KNOCK KNOCK... #THE CIA#


    Twist of Fate > I agree highly! I wouldnt mind such a feature myself.


    the_liberator> How hard is ASM? thushan sent me a program which he made which will open up Zip files automatically and let me see the contents and download files off the zip without downloading the whole zip(good for MP3's and warez) and also the source code for it... unfortnetly it looks so confusing that i dont know what he's done.


    are there any good books that i can use to read up on ASM? Which by the way i guess is Assembler?


    What's the deal with ASM? Its compiled directly to machine code.... so were can i download a compiler which does this?

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    websoftware....


    please e-mail me as soon as you get the fusion that I've been asking for...
    coz i ain't gonna be around for a couple of months........


    i'm visiting another country....


    my e-mail address is [email protected]




    regards:

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    i just think your bonkers for writing that strange story that could have been explained in a few lines

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    I will agree that VB has an easier learning curve.  I too, learned Java before C++.   Initially I had to dumb-down to C++ from Java, but after I advanced, I found C++ had far more capabilities than Java.


    It's harder, but it is better.  The only thing I hate is trying to tutor C++ and Java at the same time!


    John

    Report abuse
  • 18 years ago

    ToF> Hmmmmm 'IF' such a version is released(and as i have said earlier i dont think it will) i will give you and everyone else on this board a massive:


    [6]HOooooooLAAAAA BooooLaaa[/6]
    *NOTE: I am not on elucid drugs or other forms of substances when i wrote the aboev statement... honnest!


    "i'm visiting another country.... " Good luck and take care... if its a remote location then dont forget to take that Mosquito lotion thingy...

    Report abuse

Post a reply

Enter your message below

Sign in or Join us (it's free).

.NET forum discussion

.NET tutorials

Quick links

Recent activity

Contribute

Why not write for us? Or you could submit an event or a user group in your area. Alternatively just tell us what you think!

Web Development

Developer Jobs

Our tools

We've got automatic conversion tools to convert C# to VB.NET, VB.NET to C#. Also you can compress javascript and compress css and generate sql connection strings.

Cancel
“C++ : Where friends have access to your private members.” - Gavin Russell Baker